Criticizing Dash's Tier List

Considering how "brilliant" this list was, this'll probably take like two whole blogs to pick apart.

(scratch that. What happened to the character limit?)

I was sitting at lunch with my friend Dash the other day, and I told him, "I'm kinda curious to see what your tier list looks like." So I handed him my tablet (yes, I do have a phone but it doesn't connect to my school's wifi in the high school building specifically for some reason) and he got cooking. I watched him as he did this, and there was SOOOOO much I wanted to say about it, but I didn't. So now it's time to rant kinda. Yay.

While he did make the list based on his honest l opinions, Troupple King's infamous tier list favorite was in the back of his mind the entire time. And wouldn't ya know it, he snatched it up almost immediately. So today I'm going to go in depth about this list. While Dash doesn't have this app, I'll be sure to show him so he can learn a thing or two about tier lists and competitive Smash.

Just so you know, I let Dash know that I'm writing this blog. He's loving seeing everybody's reactions to his tier list, so I decided to make this as well. So don't think I'm going behind his back and making fun of him. It's all in good fun. With that out of the way... oh dear, where do I start with this?

-----

Table of contents

-----

Lucina above Marth... In D tier

Villager and Tink top 8

Ike high tier

S tier

Game and Watch

Fox and Falco right next to each other

Ganondorf above Captain Falcon

Olimar

Ness

Jigglypuff 10th worst

What comes after F?

Lucario

Wii Fit bottom 1

"Luigi. Oh yeah, Luigi."

Dark Pit above Pit

Dedede

DK

Bowser

Conclusion

-----

Lucina above Marth... In D tier

-----

Tier lists are made to show which characters are doing best in the metagame. Not only are Marth and Lucina much better than top 26, but Marth also deserves to be placed higher than Lucina. While Lucina has been seeing recent success as a secondary thanks to ZeRo and Nairo, her results aren't nearly as good as Marth's. ZeRo won a local then beat Ally at Midwest Mayhem with Lucina. Yay. Thing is, he's ZeRo. Of course he's gonna win locals. And Lucina is a better matchup than Diddy Kong against Mario.

Now Marth, on the other hand, has been seeing a lot of use as a main at the top level of competitive play. Players like Mr.E, Pugwest, and of course, MKLeo have been getting great results with the character, with MKLeo winning two majors with him. Buffs plus multiple major wins plus large playerbase equals top tier. Lucina, on the other hand, is either towards the bottom of top tier (cough) ZeRo (cough) or the top of high tier, depending on who you ask. But what most people can agree on is that Marth has earned his spot above Lucina on the tier list.

-----

Villager and Tink top 8

-----

Two characters in top tier that don't belong there (owait actually there's another one, we'll get back to that in a bit) are Villager and Toon Link. One of these is Dash overrating his main because yay main bias and the other is him overrating his friend's main because it took him a reallllly long time to beat my Tink in a 1v1 back in September. And I still body him with Tink. While I appreciate that you think my main is a really good character, you would probably think the same if I mained Roy or Shulk or Dededededededede.

Welcome to a segment I like to call "How To Avoid Main Bias, Whether It Be Your Main Or A Friend's Main."

Step 1: Take the characters you and your friends main.

Step 2: See where they are on the official tier list from the Smash 4 Backroom. This doesn't have to be their exact placement, but general things like middle of high tier or bottom of mid tier are fine.

Step 3: Do some research to find out why those characters are placed where they are.

Step 4: Now shuddup.

Personally, I find Toon Link to be a better character than Villager for a few reasons. For one, Villager is abysmally slow on the ground and in the air. While Toon Link also has a slow air speed, his run speed is much faster than Villy's. Each of Toon Link's projectiles have more use than Villager's, and are more likely to lead into a kill. While Villager's bowling ball and tree can seal off stocks earlier than Tink could ever dream of, the former is extremely slow and predictable, and the latter can be avoided by staying as far away from the tree as possible.

Dash: So on the blast zone on the other side?

Me: (scream)

Well, that and avoiding going offstage so you can't get trapped at the ledge. Regardless, they can still be a force to be reckoned with, and Villager has other projectiles to work with. His slingshot is one of the most annoying moves to deal with, but they don't have that much kill power or setup potential. Tink's bombs and boomerangs, on the other hand, have tons of potential for kill setups. Jump cancel glide tossed bomb into forward air is the most common and reliable projectile kill setup.

That wasn't really a criticism, because you can argue that Villager is a better character than Toon Link, but in any case, neither of them is top 10. Just wanted to share my thoughts on which character I think is better.

-----

Ike high tier

-----

This is probably main bias but for secondaries. Secondary bias if you will. I see you Dash. :eyes:

Ike is rather slow, doesn't have fantastic frame data, gets comboed hard since he's a heavyweight, has an exploitable recovery, and Quick Draw isn't as good as you think it is. He has terrible matchups against common top tier threats, most notably Sheik and Mario.

Sorry Adams.

-----

S tier

-----

I'm wondering if Dash's top tier looks the way it does with Diddy Kong on top because he saw the second official tier list and agreed with it but then never saw the third. By now, most people agree that Bayonetta is the best character in the game. The second tier list was made shortly after Bayonetta got nerfed, which made many people skeptical of her competitive viability. During this time, people made cases for characters like Sheik, Mario, Diddy Kong, Cloud, and even Rosalina and Ryu (lookin at you again ZeRo) being the best character in the game.

This is less of a Dash problem and more of a tier list problem. Some people will look at the top of the tier list and convince themselves that the character on top is objectively the best, without taking into the fact that official tier lists are an average of votes from dozens of top players. I know Dash saw the second tier list, but not the third.

Dash: Yay, it's not a me problem.

Me: (shows Dash the third tier list)

Here's a more plausible theory. ZeRo mains Diddy Kong, so Dash may have been thinking the best player would main the best character. Or maybe it's the other way around; the best player's main becomes the best character.

Total number of semicolons I've used on Smash Amino: 2

If that's the case, however, Peach would be considered the best character in Melee. And that's not how it turned out. While Armada does main Peach, Fox is the character that has been dominating the meta the most.

Yeah, it's probably because ZeRo plays Diddy. Welp.

Me: Say Dash, did you put Diddy on the top of your tier list because of the second official list or because ZeRo?

Dash: He's a good character.

Well, he's not wrong.

-----

Game and Watch

-----

Me: Game and Watch isn't that good. Lemme guess, he's up there because 9.

Dash: No, he has some good moves.

Me: 9 and up smash don't make him a good character

Dash: ...... :)

Yes it does.

No Dash. One is pure RNG, and the other is just one move. Ganondorf also has a fantastic up smash, but he's still pretty bottom of the barrel. And even if Game and Watch were that good, Dash would be putting him there for all the wrong reasons. Cyrekt, why dontcha tell him about the stuff Game and Watch can do off a grab?

While Game and Watch is a pretty darn good character when played properly, he isn't all that fast and he's super light, so he dies early. He also doesn't have many tournament results.

Quick question: What's Regi's highest placing in a major?

-----

Fox and Falco right next to each other

-----

Please don't ask why, but my friends and I used to think that Fox and Falco were essentially exactly the same aside from some of their special moves. BOY WERE WE WRONG.

Fox is a much faster character than Falco, has a better combo game and stronger kill options, a better neutral (thanks in part to Falco's laser nerfs), and fantastic results thanks to Larry Lurr.

Oyeah, and I guess Xzax beat ZeRo. So that's a thing.

You know what Dash? Next time we play Smash together, Imma show you how much better Fox is. Falco is still fun as heck to play though. Something about him I really like.

-----

Ganondorf above Captain Falcon

-----

I don't even know how Dash thinks this. So I won't even try to come up with a reason for this. Ganondorf is slower, has worse frame data, has an even worse recovery, gets zoned out harder due to his mobility, has a worse combo game, and has an almost completely useless up tilt. Falcon has a pretty good up tilt, a solid combo game, a kill throw, and a nice combination of power and speed, which makes him a much MUCH better character overall.

-----

Olimar

-----

I'll keep this one brief.

Just because you think a character looks unplayable doesn't mean they're bottom tier.

not to mention worse than Jigglypuff.

NEXT!

-----

Ness

-----

What the heck is Ness doing in 11th? Just because he can spam PK Fire and I used to main him? Ness has one of the most unsafe recoveries in the game, and thus has horrible matchups against characters that can get him offstage, force him to use PK Thunder, and make it disappear or throw it off course.

Ness has a great grab game, and PK Fire would be a good grab setup... if it wasn't for its high startup lag. Once he does get a grab at low percents, you can actually DI out of his combos. The only time you're REALLY at a risk is at high percents, since he has by far the strongest back throw in the game.

Ness also doesn't have the best results as of late, but hey, FOW beat Larry at Civil War. Who knows, maybe we'll see something like we did in 2015 where Ness was actually considered as good as Dash thinks he is.

-----

Jigglypuff 10th worst

well, 7th worst if you don't count the Miis

-----

In any case, Jigglypuff doesn't deserve to be that high. Like at all. She has so many crippling weakness that no other character has. The only character slower than her on the ground is Robin. Her ground game is also garbage, so she'll often have to rely on her air speed and six jumps to get around. But in the air, you have more limited options than you do on the ground, so you're putting yourself in a bad position no matter where you are.

Jigglypuff is by far the most frail character in the game. Lightest weight? Check. Slowest fall speed? Check. Dies from a shield break? Who thought it was a good idea to put the Balloon Pokémon in Smash?

Oright, Kirby clone in 64. Fillin' up them character slots.

Jigglypuff's special moves are also among the worst. Rollout is literally the most predictable thing on the face of the earth, Pound is laggy so the shield damage isn't even that safe for Jiggs to deal, Rest is still stupid weak for how long she stays asleep, and Sing never ever ever works. Not to mention it's an up B that doesn't help her recover.

That leads me nicely into my next point. Jigglypuff's recovery is really exploitable. If you footstool her offstage after she uses several double jumps, chances are she's dead, because she doesn't have a standard recovery move. Granted, neither does Yoshi, but he has armor on his double jump (which is the highest double jump in the game as well) and his up B does give him a bit of momentum when used in the air. Jiggs doesn't have these luxuries.

And worst of all, she hasn't been buffed. It was pretty obvious how bad she was, but they just left her alone, instead buffing characters like Marth, Lucas, and Mewtwo. I feel like the development team forgot Puff exists.

-----

What comes after F?

-----

Dash: Add another tier at the bottom. Uhhhh... What comes after F?

Matt: (adds a "What comes after F?" tier)

Dash: GGGGGGGGGGGG

Uh, Dash... You forgot to rank the Mii Fighters. And you forgot how the alphabet works. GG indeed. :clap: 🏿 :clap: 🏿 :clap: 🏿 :clap: 🏿 :clap: 🏿 :clap: 🏿 :clap: 🏿

-----

Lucario

-----

How can you tell when your friends aren't following competitive Smash? When they place Lucario at 28th. Not only does Lucario have one of the best ive abilities in the game with aura (which stacks with rage), but he also has very good results and wins. Two different Lucario mains, Day and Tsu, beat ZeRo on their first try, with Tsu even coming in second at his first American tournament, Frostbite.

Lucario's aura is in the running for the most broken mechanic in all of Smash 4. Aura alone turns him from a low tier character to a potential top tier candidate. It makes his moves stronger, Aura Sphere bigger, Force Palm longer-ranged, and his neutral safer. His forward smash can kill at 0% with max aura, for Pete's sake. Definitely much higher than where Dash placed him.

Dash: So if you took away his aura, I was almost right. :)

Me: (screams again)

-----

Wii Fit bottom 1

-----

well, bottom 4 if you count the Miis

I.... Don't even know anymore.

Wii Fit has good projectiles in Sun Salutation and Header, a combo starter in neutral air, incredibly deadly combos, a jab that can bury, and two healing moves.

Jab can be used to start combos as well, since when you escape from being buried, you're still vulnerable for another 11 frames. If Wii Fit times it right, you can die from a follow-up after a jab.

Um.... Mkay, Imma level with ya. I honestly don't know that much about Wii Fit. But she's definitely not the worst character in the game.

-----

"Luigi. Oh yeah, Luigi."

-----

Luigi is placed 12th on Dash's tier list. Higher than Mewtwo, Sonic, and Fox. WHAT. (inhales)

Just because I've used a couple dozen Luigi Cyclones on you doesn't make him top 15. It's a darn good move, but one good move doesn't singlehandedly make a good character. Just ask Ganondorf and his godlike up smash.

Luigi has the lowest traction in the game. This comes with its pros and cons. On the one hand, it can be hard for opponents to hit him since he can't stand still. On the other hand, this means when he's shielding, he'll be pushed really far back, which means he can't follow up with an attack either.

Luigi is also one of the floatiest characters in the game. This means he'll die super early to vertical kill moves.

I'll give Luigi credit where credit is due though. His combo game is definitely among the best out there. He also has an amazing combo breaker in neutral air, and up B out of shield can catch opponents off guard.... Is what I would say if Luigi could actually up B out of shield without sliding back half the stage because of his garbage traction. I could keep going, but this blog is already stupid long.

(exhales)

-----

Dark Pit above Pit

-----

Sorry Dash, a side B that can kill earlier doesn't automatically make Dark Pit a better character. And the only reason you have trouble playing Pit is because you use a million side Bs as Dark Pit.

Other than side B, arrows, and forward tilt, both characters are exactly the same. Even if Electroshock Arm is a good kill option, it isn't that safe to use due to the startup lag. Because of this, opponents can shield and then punish the move when it's over. And Upperdash Arm can kill too, so.

The reason I place Pit higher is because of his arrows. Their better maneuverability makes them effective edgeguarding tools. Seems like people who are bad at arrows think Dark Pit is better.

-----

Dedede

-----

Dedede is 36th. Why? He has one of the worst projectiles in the game, is heavy and a fast faller so he gets comboed like there's no tomorrow, has abysmal frame data, and has a huge hurtbox.

Let's take a look at his Gordo. It's a slow projectile that can hit like a truck. Doesn't sound like the worst thing ever.... Until you realize how easily it can be reflected. And I'm not just talking about capes and orbitars either. Literally any hitbox that deals 2% or more will send the Gordo right back at Dedede.

-----

DK

-----

How do you place GANONDORF above Donkey? DK has so much more going for him. Among those things are an amazing back air, a godlike cargo throw, strong kill options, surprisingly good mobility for a superheavyweight, a kill throw, and several grab setups. His ding dong is one of the most powerful kill combos in the game. Granted, it does require a tight range of percents and that range will shift with rage, but it can still kill at pretty early percents. This is made even better by the fact that DK has a great grab range and his cargo up throw does 10%.

-----

Bowser

-----

Yes, Bowser is a good character. Yes, Nairo is godlike with him. But that doesn't mean he's top 15. He has a great grab game (although the Koo Pah is less consistent than the Ding Dong), also better mobility than one would expect from the heaviest character in the game, decent frame data, but other than that, he doesn't have that much going for him.

Bowser's lack of a true projectile means it can be difficult for him to make space between him and his opponent. He's the heaviest character in the game, and while this does mean he can take more hits before he dies, he'll take many hits faster than lighter characters. His recovery is sort of average, but nothing spectacular. Bowsercide can be mashed out of. Hks heavy weight and huge hurtbox, combined with his lack of a projectile also causes another problem, which is that he gets zoned out pretty easily by characters like Tink and Mega Man, and there isn't much he can do about it. While he is a pretty good character, he's definitely not that good.

-----

Conclusion

-----

"I'm Bigdash29 and I approve this message."

There's a lot more I could have covered in this blog, but holy crud, it's too long already. And before you ask, Dash did read through all of this. He does indeed approve this... Very, very long message. And all those conversations you saw throughout the blog are actual quotes. We said all that stuff. If you wanna see more stuff from Dash in the future, let me know and I'll make it happen. This is Matt, g off.

I give this tier list a final rating of 2.9 out of 10.

edit: daily reminder that this tier list is terrible and bad