Smash 4: Mario > Palutena

I FINALLY GOT A POST IDEA!

This is a response to an old post which was 1210 words long. This post is over 4300 words long so grab some popcorn and enjoy an angry teen rant about why his character in some old game is good.

Ahem. Hey guys, I ed about this really old post saying Palutena is better than Mario In Smash 4 which at the time I thought was wrong. Being a Mario main this hurt my soul and now I know more about the game I feel like I can finally respond. Of course I'm not hating on this guy, I'm just giving my opinion.

I'm going to go over the same points as he did with a bonus one but give my opinions, since I disagree with a lot of his reasonings and think he missed a lot of points about Mario. I ALSO PLAYED HIM A FEW YEARS AGO AND HE WAS FREEEEEEEE HE KNOWS NOTHING LMAO.

Yes that's a joke but I think I did play him at one point. I can't much though.

And yeah I'm only 2 years late responding...

Table of contents

Grab game

Spacing

Kill power

Aerials

Options

Stage controls

Specials

Normals

Conclusion

Grab game

Mario

He only wrote 1 paragraph about Mario's grab game very briefly mentioning why it's good. There's a LOT that Mario can do just by getting a grab, it's a little ridiculous.

For starters you can do up throw to down air at 0%, and the only way of escaping is airdodging/using a really fast aerial at just the right time. Even if they air dodge it's often easy to grab them again or hit them with another move. You can double jump after the down air and hit them with a fair or bair depending on di. Since forward air sends them straight down there is a chance you'll be able to grab them again if you catch them off guard.

When they have a bit of damage, your down throw can set up for countless up tilt or up air strings. You can get creative by using neutral airs or back airs too. No matter the di you can often get decent percent.

If there are platforms you can even get kills from up air strings. Up b is usually the finishing move, especially when reversed. It's a broken move; I killed Myrrusz Jigglypuff with it at 15% on Battlefield. THAT WAS AFTER IT HIT TOO.

Then there is his footstool combos. He has like 3 from grabs I think but the most common and practical is down throw, up air, footstool, side b, weak hit of neutral air into 2 jabs and probably an f smash to kill. This works at around 50% and can kill.

He also has a 50/50 with down throw. Mario can down throw you and depending on di follow it up with a forward air spike guaranteed. If it isn't guaranteed it will still be a 50/50 depending on if you can read an air dodge. This is good if you catch your opponent near the ledge. I've gotten countless kills with this.

He has some more janky stuff with forward throw which isn't true, like forward throw to a back air jablock at low% or forward throw then run off the stage with a fair spike. I'm not gonna lie I got hit by that before and it wasn't a good feeling. He even has forward throw to reverse back air with is true and can lead into soke good damage.

So up throw has a use at early percents, forward throw can be used at mid percents and for dumb jank, down throw is just amazing and back throw is great for killing. All of Mario's throws can be used. I would've mentioned using forward and back throw for getting people offstage and setting up for edge guards but every character can do that.

Palutena

"Palu though does have an amazing grab game too. She has combos from grabs that can do up to 27 percent if they di in." Mario can get 0 to deaths and do 80+% from grabs from the wrong di. Even with the right di he can get more than 27%. Most games you can easily get 40% or more from a combo.

Then he mentions about Palutena's 50/50 which I will it is good, but Mario also has one. He does have to be at the ledge though so there is a downside to it. That's the only thing Palutena's grab game really has over Mario's.

Mario EASILY has the better grab game, even he agreed. This was quite a long part but Mario's grab game is so good that I had to go a bit more in-depth.

Spacing

Can I skip this part? Please?

Mario

This is Mario's main weakness. You only really have moves likes back air, neutral air, jab and f tilt to kind of space. What bothers me is the only move he mentioned was forward Smash and then he says it's unsafe. Back air is a safe aerial that Mario mains use to space the most.

The reason Mario's spacing isn't that good is because he's good at forcing people to approach or can he just goes in kind of reckless and has other methods to safely get in quickly. His other strengths make up for this, that's why most people consider him top 5 or top 10. I won't say how good I think Mario is, that could be it's own post.

Palutena

Yeah she's pretty good at spacing I won't deny it. Her fair is fast and safe. I don't agree with down tilt being underrated however, it's punishable and decent at best. When do you see a Plautena use down tilt? Not very often. Jab is good but it doesn't do much when you land it. It's a bit of quick damage mainly. Then back air is nice, but it can be used as a kill move, so you have to decide if you want to space with it a lot or just at kill percents because of staling.

Palutena wins here I can't argue with that.

Kill power

He thinks Palutena is better at killing than Mario. This is the first major disagreement we have so I'll go over the reasons I think Mario can kill better than Palu.

Mario

These are all the moves he considers kill moves "Up smash, Down smash, f smash, bair, dair, up air, and back throw." So he thinks Mario has 7 kill moves. 7 KILL MOVES.

This is without mentioning fair spikes too. There's 1 move that he forgot which baffles me: up b. I mentioned previously how early this can kill. It's also good from combos so it's easier to get than just randomly doing up b.

I got annoyed when he mentioned up smash. All he said is it's his fastest option, then goes on to say Palutena has safer and better options. Not so fast pal. When you do reverse jump canceled up smash it can actually be really safe on shield. There's a reason us Mario players use it so much. It also kills at a good %.

So ok, they're scared of you up smashing so they naturally overuse shield. Luckily for Mario, he has a back throw which kills, especially at the edge. Up smash and back throw work extremely well together, since if they shield you can grab and if they don't you can up smash.

F smash can kill really early, and if you space it just right it's decently safe. It's probably his most risky smash attack but sweetspot it and you can take some premature stocks.

I ran out of ways to say "get the kill".

Time for a little rant while I'm at it. when I mentioned jab locks at 50ish%? They're great for getting super early kills. I'll give a couple of jab lock setups I like and rough percents.

50ish%: Down throw, up air, footstool, side b, weak hit of neutral air into 2 jabs.

50ish% Neutral air to 3 jabs max.

40-50ish% Back air to 3 jabs max. If you think they won't tech again you can sometimes go for the neutral air lock.

90-110ish% Weak hit neutral air to 3 jabs max.

Ok great, how do I kill though? F smash usually kills or gets very close to it. At around 60-80% depending on the weight you can do fast fall up air to forward air spike at the ledge for an easy kill.

I really want to mention F.L.U.D.D and cape but I'll get to that in the specials section. Just know they're great kills at any%.

For the Palutena section he mentions her 50/50 and we've already been over that Mario has one too, it's just not quite as good.

So to sum it up, Mario has a ton of ways to kill that compliment each other. From grabs to smash attacks to neutral air. He also racks up insane damage with his combo game I went over earlier.

Palutena

Yeah the 50/50 is a nice thing to have. It's not a guaranteed way to kill but a 50% chance is solid. Back air is a great kill move, since it's really safe and spamable, while being strong.

He also mentions up tilt. There is almost no use for up tilt when up smash basically does the same job. Both aren't really safe and up smash is used a lot more.

He uses Palutena's dash attack as a good way of catching landings, but failed to mention that Mario's up smash does the same AND, when reverse jump canceled, is safer too. It even can catch jumps. Palutena's dash attack is okay but it's really nothing too special.

Since I mentioned Mario's fair briefly I'll note that Palutena has a spike but it's hard to land. Up air is good if you can land it but I wouldn't say it's one of the best kill moves. 3 Of the kill moves are hitboxes above Palutena: Up air, up smash and up tilt. That's not ideal but she does have the other moves like back air and back throw.

Plautena definitely isn't bad at killing, but Mario takes this one for me.

Aerials

Mario

The main point that gets brought up is that his aerials are only used for combos and don't kill until high percents. As I've already mentioned his aerials don't need to kill, they aren't really designed to. I'll go over every aireal and it's use/uses.

Up air: This is insane for combos. That isn't a bad thing either, it's what makes Mario so good. You can get unreal percent and kills starting from an up air, like I said at a certain percent it can even combo into forward air. Speaking forward air...

Fair: Mario's classic spike. Landing this feels soooo satisfying but that's beside the point. For a spike it's pretty good, and can kill early. There are setups to get it which I've already gone over so I won't repeat them again. Just get them off stage and make a "HHHHHHYAAAAH" noise, summoning your inner demons to send them into the blastzone at mach 9 speed.

Bair: Back air is one of his best aerials. At low percents it lead into a grab. It can be used in combos and set up for a jablock. You can also use this for spacing. If you hit a shield there is the option to cross up AND use a different aerial. (Good for edge guards obviously.)

Neutral air: This move can be used mid combo but that's not all it's good for. It can lead into jablocks too. You can stuff out approaches with it and also use it as a get off me move or combo breaker. It has a lingering hitbox so it's good for edge guards, like bair.

Down air: Good for the Ally combo, but that's not all. This move is a good approach for Mario. Like back air it can cross up and you have time to use a second aerial. It's good for catching jumps sometimes. It can even get you a down smash kill if you land with it, it might not be true but it actually more than you'd think.

Mario's aerials are good for combos, but clearly that isn't all.

Palutena

Up air: Like I said, up air is can kill pretty early if you land it. It's got a weird hitbox like a lot of Palutena's moves though, you can only really use it when someone is directly above you.

Fair: Palutena has a good forward air, especially when it comes to spacing. You can dash after it and get a grab too. It's like Mario's back air but as a forward air in a way. Using fast fall fairs to wall people out can be a good strategy. It's also good for edge guards, and so is bair.

Bair: I don't know how I feel about this move. You can space it safely and do retreating back airs. The issue for me is that it can also kill, so if you use it a lot early on it can be hard to kill with it later. It's a great move though, don't get me wrong.

Neutral air: EEEEEHHH. It's good for combos but with moves like fair and bair I don't really see any reason to use this for anything else. It's easily punishable if shielded or missed. It could be used for edge guards since it lasts awhile.

Down air: A spike that's both harder to land and just worse than Mario's. Good Palutena players never really use this move unless they get a solid real, since the hitbox is bad. The actual spike is decent if you land it.

I would definitely give this round to my man Mario. Phew, halfway there. I don't think the other points will be as long as some of these though.

Options

He made this one paragraph long so I really don't have much to work with other than calling out some small parts of what he said and biting my tongue until the next point.

Mario's only approach is NOT grab. This just tells me you play too much for glory. Mario's best approach is probably fullhop fireball. This way you can grab if they shield or land with nair if they don't.

He also has back air and down air cross ups. If you count Palutena's dash attack which isn't safe at all then Mario's would count too. Mario can also force you to approach a lot better than Palutena. I'll get more into that soon.

Palutena has some decent approach options too, but I don't agree with dash attack or nair. The problem with nair is you can't easily escape and you have to commit to it, since you can't act while you're still in the air (unlike with Mario's back air and down air.)

Stage control

Mario

Ok, so you do you know about this thing called F.L.U.D.D?

If you press down b and your opponent is stood their: boom! You just got stage control for free. You can just get them off stage for an edge guard or ledge trap situation.

You can use back air and fireballs to keep your opponent away OR force an approach, nair to stuff potential approaches and even moves like jab to put on pressure and keep them from getting center stage.

Mario's throws are also good to get stage control, and even with down throw combos you can carry your opponent all around the stage.

I could go on but I want to save some stuff for the specials section.

Palutena

She has some good options also. Of course grabs are good, forward air and back air are both safe when spaced and like he says, nair can also be used to anti air like Mario's can.

I'd give this one to Mario. F.L.U.D.D is amazing when used right and with some fireballs and back airs he can keep center stage for awhile.

Specials

I'll do this like the aerials.

Mario

Up b: As a recovery, this is a pretty good one. It's hard to hit hit out of us and he uses magnet hands to snap on the ledge pretty well. You can hit him out of it but overall it's pretty good.

Used in combos it can get a nice little bit of extra percent or get the kill. One final use this move has is being a quick out of shield option. It comes out super fast and punishes a lot of moves. If you miss you'll eat a big punish though, so it isn't good if you use it a lot.

Side b: The fact this move has so many uses it amazing. For starters, it is a reflector. We all love reflectors, they help you deal with projectile characters and can net you some free early percent kills against moves like aura sphere or shadow ball.

It also changes the direction the opponent is facing. This can be used for some free damage in specific situations, like if someone tries to warlock punch you. The reason this is a good thing is for gimping.

If someone has momentum, is recovering or in freefall you can just go nope, press side b and kill them regardless of percent. This combined with F.L.U.D.D leads to insane edge guarding, but I'll get more into F.L.U.D.D. in a minute.

Jigglypuff does neutral b for some reason? Dead. Someone up b's off stage and is in freefall, di'ing to the ledge? Dead.

Here's another specific but important use: shield breaks. If you get a shield break and don't think f smash will kill or they are not at the percent where you can do up air to fair, you can side b and it will damage them and turn them around without waking them up.

There's still more. You can stall in the air with this, which is useful for more than just the footstool combo from earlier. It can throw off your opponents edge guard timing and mess them up.

Then there is the fact it can turn YOU around. This is useful for doing things like dropping from the ledge, turning around with side b, then getting back onstage with back air.

Oh, and it can jablock. :)

Neutral b:

The fireball is actually a great projectile. For starters, it can be used to approach. If you full hop with it, you can either grab if shield the fireball, or they'll get hit and you can do something like neutral air or even fastfall grab.

Next, it can be used to force an approach. If you keep doing full hop fireballs, especially when they don't have a reflector, they will be forced to either approach or just stand their shielding.

You can just throw some out at the right distance to try and get some free damage too, why not?

It's also great for edge guarding. It hits them and sends them down a tiny bit, which can sometimes be enough to kill or give you enough time to go off stage and follow up with an edge guard attempt.

Down b:

F.L.U.D.D, like I said, is incredible. One main use lower level Mario's don't utilise enough is just using it to move your opponent. If they're on stage you can push them far, sometimes even off stage. If they are in the air you can almost always get them all the way off stage. Free stage control, edge guard and/or ledge trap. If they used their double jump too? They're probably dead.

If they are off stage, F.L.U.D.D can push them far enough away to kill. It's a lot more likely if they're recovering or used their double jump off stage. If it doesn't kill and you get a cape they're basically dead. You can also go off and edge guard to finish them off.

up b out of shield. If someone you're playing does that, like a Lucina or Luigi, fludd them and they're dead. If they can just about make it to the ledge, a cape will stop that.

You can shield F.L.U.D.D if you're on the ground but people usually never expect it.

Palutena

Up b:

I love this move, I don't even care if I'm supposed to be defending Mario. As a recovery it's pretty good: you disappear and then reappear. It goes a decent distance and if you angle it from the top you can grab the ledge without having the 2 frames.

It doesn't do damage, and considering Mario has an up b that can kill at 15% I'd have to say his is better. The thing I love about Palutena's up b is that you don't go into freefall if you slide off of a platform or the ledge, and you can act immediately. I love doing this to down air but it barely ever works and is really gimmicky.

Side b:

A reflector, which as we've said is a good thing, but this one has no way near as many uses as Mario's. This is strictly used as a reflector unless someone is in free fall and you can JUST push them off the edge.

Neutral b:

It fires 3 weird shots. Autoreticle is ok at best. I guess you can try and use it to edge guard or if you're far away and they won't approach or move. It takes awhile and is easy to avoid.

Down b:

A generic counter which has the same issues as most counters without the benefit. If you use this and miss you can get hard punished, either by a long combo or a smash attack depending on the percent.

If you hit, this doesn't do too much damage and has very little knockback. I'm glad they acknowledged this issue and didn't just say it's good because it is a counter. If I had to describe this move in one face it'd be :(.

Of course Mario wins here, the guy thinks the same too. No surprises here.

Normals

I thought I may as well go over these since he didn't.

Mario

Up tilt:

Everyone knows how good Mario's up tilt is. The main use of course is combos. You can do multiple up tilts, up tilt to up air and much more. Using a perfect pivot up tilt can be a great way to punish roll reads at lower percents.

F tilt:

This move isn't great. It's primary use is just to use it as a get off me move when your opponent is too close. It comes out decently fast and is ok at what it does, although it isn't used much. Another good way to use this is to set up for tech chase scenarios.

Jab: Mario's jab is actually pretty good. Like f tilt, it's good as a get off me move but it has more uses. You can just use it if you need an attack. Of course there is the classic jab to grab which can work as a mixup. I use this move a lot for jab locking.

Down tilt:

D tilt is a good move to try and space with a perfect pivot. It's pretty safe if you do it like that and it can shield poke. What makes it a good if is that it combos because of the low knockback. You can use almost anything: up tilt, up air, neutral air, up b, reverse back air etc.

Overall Mario has some great normals and 1 or 2 decent ones. Up tilt would probably be enough to make his normals better than Palutena's.

Yes that's a joke chill out. I still think Mario has better normals though.

Palutena

Up tilt:

Palutena's up tilt is ok, it can kill but it's quite laggy and punishable if you miss it. She has a lot of other moves that can kill above her, like up smash or up air but it does have it's uses still.

F tilt:

This is another decent move. You can use it to get someone off stage and if you space it right it could be a little hard to punish? It's a little laggy and if you miss you could get punished.

Jab:

Considering this is a jab, it is a pretty good one. It's good to just throw out to get a reaction and learn some of your opponents habits and see how they deal with situations. You either just jab or you hold it, and they can escape if you don't let go quick enough though. Definitely a solid move though.

Down tilt:

Palutena's down tilt is good at shield poking, and sends at an decent angle for edge guarding. Once again this lasts a little long so you can hit her quite easily if she doesn't hit you with it.

Palutena doesn't have the best normals and I'd say Mario easily takes this round.

Conclusion

"She has better aerials, stage control, even edge guarding, better kill power, better mix ups, better juggling, and better range."

This hurts my soul, HOW DOES SHE HAVE BETTER EDGE GUARDING? Mario's fludd and cape, back air, fair and nair are all good to use. Palutena is just decent at edge guarding.

Kill power I've already gone over, same with stage control and aerial. The fact he says juggling also baffles me; Palu can juggle but Mario's insane up air and fludd juggles are undoubtedly better in my opinion.

Overall I think this person was more familiar with Palutena than Mario and didn't know what Mario was capable of. I'll still respect their opinion but

IT'S WRONG.

bi.